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Krishnamurti

K: I don't discover; I perceive.

P.J.: Where?

K: What do you mean by where? You pointed out to me just now that I have an image about myself. I have not thought about it, I have never seen my image. You point it out; you make a statement that I have an image. I am listening to you very carefully, very attentively, and in that very listening I discover the fact that I have an image of myself. Or, do I see an image of myself?

P.J.: I don't think I am making myself clear. If I don't see it as an abstraction, then that image-making machinery is the ground on which this is seen. Let me go into it a little further. There is a ground from which the image-making machinery rises.

K: Why do you use the word `ground'?

P.J.: Because, in talking and responding, there is a tendency to become conceptual. If one comes out of the con- ceptual to the actual, then the actual is the process of perceiving.

K: That is all. Stop there.

P.J.: I cannot stop there. I ask you further: I don't perceive it in your statement; then where do I perceive it?

K: You perceive it as it is taking place.

P.J.: When you say `as it is taking place', where do I perceive it? Do I perceive it outside or in my imagination?

K:. I saw that squirrel walking about. I perceive it, I perceive the fact, I watch the fact that I have an image.

P.J.: This is not very clear.

K: It is very very clear. You tell me that I am a liar. I have told a lie. I realize that I am a liar.

P.J.: Is there a difference between realizing that I am a liar and perceiving that I am a liar?

K: I have perceived that I am a liar. I am aware - let us use the word `aware' - that I am a liar. That is all.

P.J.: Can you open up this seeing of the movement within the mind? I think this is the core of the whole thing.

K: We were talking about freedom from fear. We want to discuss the whole movement of fear. It begins with desire, with time, with memory; it begins with the fact of the present movement of fear. All this is involved in the whole river of fear. Either the fear is very, very shallow or it is a deep river with a great volume of water. We are not discussing the various objects of fear, but fear itself. Now is it an abstraction of fear that we are discussing, or actual fear in my heart, in my mind? Is it that I am facing the fear? I want to be clear on this point. If we are discussing abstract fear, it has no meaning to me. I am concerned only with the actual happening of fear. I say in that fear all this is involved, the desire and the very complexity of desire, time, the past impinging on the present, and the sense of wanting to go beyond fear. All this must be perceived. I don't know if you follow. We have to take a thing like the drop of rain which contains all the rivers in the world, see the beauty of that one drop of rain. One drop of desire contains the whole movement of fear.
So what is desire? Why do we suppress it? Why do you say it has a tremendous importance? I want to be a minister; my desire is for that, or my desire is for god. My desire for god and my desire to be a minister are one and the same thing - it is desire. So I have to understand the depth of what desire is, why it drives man, why it has been suppressed by all religions.
One asks what is the place of desire and why the brain is consumed with desire. I have to understand it not only at the verbal level through explanation, through communication, but to understand it at its deepest level, in my guts. What is the place of thought in desire? Is desire different from thought? Does thought play an important part in desire? Or is thought the movement of desire? Is thought part of desire or does thought dominate desire, control and shape desire?

So I am asking: Are thought and desire not like two horses? I must understand not only thought, but the whole movement of thinking, the origin of thought; not the end, but the beginning of thought. Can the mind be aware of the beginning of thought and also of the beginning of desire?
I have to go into that question: What is desire and what is thought? First, there is perception, contact, sensation. That is, I see a blue shirt in the window. I go inside and touch the texture, then out of that touching, there is sensation. Then thought says, how nice it would be if I put on that blue shirt. The creation by thought of the image of that shirt on me is the beginning of desire.

S.K.: You said, you feel in the guts. I think that is where desire resides. K: We understand desire, how it arises, where thought creates the image and desire begins. Then what is time? Is time a movement of thought? There is time, the sun rises, the sun sets at a certain time; time as the past, present and the future; time as the past modifying itself, becoming the future physically; time as covering a distance; time as learning a language. Then there is the whole area of psychological time. I have been, I am, I will be. That is a movement of the past through the present modifying into the future. Time as acquiring knowledge through experience, memory, thought, action - that is also time. So there is psychological time and physical time.
Now, is there psychological time at all? Or, has thought as hope created time? That is, I am violent, I will be non-violent, and I realize that that process can never end violence. What will end violence is confronting the fact and remaining with it, not trying to dodge it or escape from it. There is no opposite; only `what is'.
And what is thinking? Why has man given a tremendous importance to the intellect, to words, theories, ideas? Unless I discover the origin of thinking, how it begins, can there be awareness of thought arising? Or, does awareness come after it has arisen? Is there awareness of the movement of the whole river of thought? Thought has become extraordinarily important. Thought exists because there is knowledge, experience, stored up in the brain as memory; from that memory there is thought and action. In this process we live, always within the field of the known. So desire, time, thought, is essentially fear. Without this there is no fear. I am afraid inwardly, and I want order out there - in society, in politics, economics. How can there be order out there if I am in disorder here?

P.J.: Can I bring order within, me if there is disorder outside? I am deliberately posing this problem which lay in your early dichotomy between the outward and the inward. The outward is compared to the computer on the one hand and the atom bomb, which I think is taking over.

J.U.: We cannot realize that freedom without relating ourselves to the outside where there is dukh (sorrow), where there is so much turmoil. We cannot understand the process of freedom without relating the inward and the outward.

K: Have I understood the question rightly? You are saying that the division between the outer and the inner is false. I agree with you. It is a movement like a tide, going out and coming in. So what is outside is me; me is the outside.
The outer is a movement of the inner; the inner is the movement of the outer. There is no dichotomy at all. But by understanding the outer, that criterion will guide me to the inner, so that there is no deception; because I do not want to be deceived at the end of it. So the outer is the indicator of the inner and the inner is the indicator of the outer. There is no difference. My part is not to put away the outer; I say I am responsible for that. I am responsible for everything that is happening in the world. My brain is not my brain: it is the brain of humanity, which has grown through evolution and all the rest of it. So there is responsibility, political, religious, all along the line.

Chapter 3 Part 2 The Future Of Man

Seminar New Delhi 5th November 1981 Morning Session