Mind Without Measure

J. Krishnamurti

This is not a lecture, but rather a conversation between two people, between you and the speaker, not on a particular subject, instructing and shaping your thought or opinions. We are two friends sitting in a park on a bench, talking over together our problems, friends who are concerned deeply with what is going on in the world, with the confusion, the chaos that exists throughout the world. I wonder if you have a friend with whom you talk, to whom you expose your own feelings, your concepts, your ideas, disillusionment, and so on. We are going to talk over together in that manner - exploring, enquiring, without any bias, in great friendship, which means, with great affection, respecting each other, without having some kind of hidden thought, hidden motives.

First, let us look at what is happening around us, outwardly, without any bias, not as an Indian, not as a German, Englishman, American or Russian. We are human beings, whatever country we belong to. One observes countries going through a great deal of confusion, great uncertainty; there is chaos. People have no direction. But, unfortunately, we are conditioned, we are confused, uncertain, insecure, and we try to find a solution in the past, go back to our own traditions. This is what is happening throughout the world. There are the fundamentalists who accept the Bible as their authority, the fundamentalists of Islam who look to the Koran. There are the fundamentalists who look to Marx. So, when we are uncertain, confused, greatly disturbed, we look to the past, to some kind of authority, some kind of book, to find a direction. Now, in this country, as you observe, there are too many books, too many labels. So, here tradition is uncertain. You have all the leaders, all the gurus, but all the so-called saints have not helped mankind.

What is the root cause of all this confusion? When one can find the cause, then one can end it. A cause has an end. We are asking what is the cause or what are the causes of this confusion, this lack of integrity, this sense of desperate degeneration. What is the root of all this? Most of us play with symptoms. We say it is due to overpopulation, bad government. Throughout the world it is the same - lack of leadership, lack of morality. These are all symptoms. One never asks what is the cause of all this. When we begin to enquire into the cause, each one of us will give different opinions. The more learned we are, the greater is the assertion of the cause or causes. But we are not very learned people. We are ordinary people, we are laymen, we are not very bright, very intelligent. But we are caught in this great turmoil that exists in the world and here in this country. Every nation, every group, is preparing for war. All countries, especially the industrial countries, are supplying armaments to the rest of the world. Nobody asks, `Why do we have to have wars, why do we have to kill each other, murder each other?' They are talking about stopping nuclear wars, but not ending all wars. Why have human beings reduced themselves to this condition? This is very important to ask. Why do we have to kill other people? Is it for your nation, for your particular group? We have accepted the idea of war as a historical process and it has become a reality. But the root of it is, we live in an illusion, illusion that our country must be protected. What is your country? What are you protecting - your house, your home, your ideas, your bank account? The whole world is degenerating, going to pieces, and we are not enquiring into fundamental causes.

Now, what is the cause? Is it that you have so far looked to political leaders, religious leaders, economic leaders with their particular ideas, with their particular systems, to help you, so that you are always depending on others to guide you, to tell you what to do? Is that the root cause of this, or do you blame the environment? The environment is the government having no proper leader, no righteous guru. That is the environment - something outside of you. Is that the cause of this, which means that you have relied entirely on authority - the authority of tradition, authority of books, authority of leaders, gurus, and so on? When you depend, you gradually become weak, you become feeble. You are incapable of thinking clearly. This is a fact. Newspapers tell you what to think. All the meetings, the discourses that you attend, instruct. So the lack of self-reliance, the lack of a sense of responsibility for oneself - that may be the root cause of all this confusion. We have become irresponsible because we depend.

Is it possible to be a light to oneself and not depend on a single person? You have to depend on the milkman, on the postman, on the policeman who keeps order at the crossroad. You depend on a surgeon, on a doctor. But inwardly, psychologically, one doesn't have to depend to think clearly for oneself, to observe one's own reactions and responses, if one can be completely a light to oneself. Do you understand what that means - to be a light to oneself? It is not self-confidence, not self-reliance. Self-confidence is part of selfishness. It is part of egotism. But to be a light to oneself requires great freedom, a very clear brain, not a conditioned brain. But to have an active brain, to challenge, to question, to doubt, that means to have energy. But when you depend on others, you lose energy.

So, let us proceed from that. Is your mind, your brain, conditioned? Do you understand that word `conditioned'? From the moment we are born, the brain is being conditioned, shaped by tradition, by religion, by the literature you read, by the newspapers, by parents. the brain has lived for millions of years. It has had great many experiences. It has faced wars, sorrow, pleasure, pain, agony, great disturbances. And it is conditioned as a Hindu, as a Sikh, as a Muslim, as a Christian. Why is it conditioned? We are enquiring seriously whether your brain which is conditioned - if you are aware of it - can that conditioning be resolved? Do we see actually that we are conditioned? Do both of us agree to this at least? If you are conditioned, it means your being becomes mechanical - you repeat that you are a Hindu, you are a Muslim, you are a Marxist, and so on. Your brain becomes mechanical, repeating the same thing over and over again. So, first, do we, two of us, talking together as friends, realize actually that our brains are conditioned? Then we ask whether it is possible to free the brain from being a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, a Marxist. We are human beings, not labels. But labels count a great deal. That is what is going on.

Where there is conditioning, there is no freedom. There cannot be love, there cannot be affection. It is imperative, absolutely essential for the future of humanity that we are concerned with the brain which is conditioned. If one is aware of that, then we can proceed to ask whether it is possible to free the brain. The relationship between the brain and the mind can come, is understood, when the brain is completely free. Then the brain is the mind. We will go into that later as we go along.

We are conditioned, and we are asking whether it is possible to be free. Don't say it is or it is not, because that will be absurd; whereas if you are enquiring, then you are learning through investigation. Where do you begin to enquire whether it is possible to free the brain from its conditioning, to enquire whether it is possible not to be a Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh, but a human being with all the travails of humanity, the anxieties, the uncertainties, the depth of sorrow and pain? Do you begin to enquire from the outside or do you begin to enquire from inside? That is, is the outside world different from the world in which we live inside? Do you understand that question? The society, the morals, the outward world - is that different from you or have you created it? Please look at this: The world is you and you are the world. It is very important to understand this. In our disorder, in our confusion, in our desire for security, we have created a world outside of us as society, which is corrupt, immoral, confused, everlastingly at war, because we in ourselves are confused, we are in conflict.

So where do you begin, knowing that you have created this world? You have to begin with yourself, not with the alteration of the system, of the outer world. It means, not looking for a new leader, new system, new philosophy, new gurus, but looking at yourself as you are. Can you observe yourself as you would observe your face in a mirror? Can you observe your reactions, your responses, because your reactions and your responses are what you are. So let us begin to enquire there.

Life is a process of relationship. There is no life without relationship. This is a fact. You may be a hermit, you may be a monk, you may withdraw from all society, but you are related. As a human being, you cannot escape from being related. You are related to your wife, to your husband, to your children, you are related to your government, you are related to the hermit who withdraws because you feed him, and he is related to his ideas. So relationship is the basis of human existence. Without relationship there is no existence. You are either related to the past, which is, to all the tradition, to all the memories, to the monks, or you are related to some future ideation. So relationship is the most important thing in life. Do you see the truth of that, not verbally, not intellectually, but actually with your heart and mind?

We are enquiring what is your relationship with another, however intimate or not. Is it that you are from childhood hurt, wounded psychologically, and therefore, from that hurt. from that psychological wound, you bring about violence? The consequence of being hurt, inwardly wounded, is that you enclose yourself more and more in order not to be hurt. And your relationship with another then becomes very narrow, limited. We must first enquire whether it is possible to find out if you can never be hurt. What is the root of being hurt? What is the cause? When I say I am hurt, my pride is hurt, what does that mean? My teacher has hurt me, my parents have hurt me. We are all hurt. We are all wounded by an accident, by a word, by a look, by a gesture. So what is it that is hurt? You say I am hurt. What is that `I' which is being hurt? Is it not an image that you have built about yourself?

We are asking a very serious question: What is it that is hurt? The brain has the capacity to create images. The images are the illusions. We have illusions, war is an illusion; we accept it. You accept killing another human being, another life, as part of the image which you have. You have many, many images. And one of the images is, I am being hurt. We are enquiring what is the entity that is being hurt. The entity is the image that I have built about myself. I think I am a great man and you come along and tell me, `Don't be an idiot.' I get hurt. Where there is comparison, there is hurt. When I compare myself with somebody who is more clever, more bright, more intelligent, that is, when there is measurement, there must be hurt. So please enquire whether you can live without comparison, without measurement. We are always comparing ourselves with someone. It begins at the school when the boy is told that he must be as good as his brother. That is comparison, that is measurement, and that process continues throughout life.

So, is it possible to live without comparison, without measurement? This is a tremendously complicated question. Because, the word `better' is measurement. The word `more' is measurement. Self-improvement is measurement. Find out whether it is possible to live without measurement, which means, to live without comparison. Part of meditation is to enquire into not becoming; becoming is measurement. Is it possible in our relationship with each other, however intimate it is, not to have measurement? That means your brain must be active in your relationship; it must enquire into your relationship, whether in that relationship there is hurt and that hurt brings about greater fear, greater enclosure within oneself, and therefore isolation. And as long as there is isolation, either outwardly or inwardly, there must be conflict.

We are saying the brain has been conditioned to isolation as a Hindu, as a Buddhist, and so on. To enquire into this question. whether the brain can resolve its own conditioning, we must enquire into relationship. What is your relationship with another, with your wife, with your husband, with your children? Begin there, near at home, not far away. You know, sirs, to go very far you must begin very, very near. To go very far you must put your house in order. Can you be aware, alert, so that you are watching your relationship and are learning from that awareness how you respond, what your reactions are? That is life, that is everyday life. That requires constant attention to every reaction, to every thought. But most of us are so lazy. We have become lazy because we are dependent on others.

We have, as two friends, gone into the question of relationship, and we will enquire further into the nature of that relationship. Is the human brain your brain, or is it the brain of mankind? This is really a very serious question. Is your brain an individual brain or the brain of humanity? When you say it is my brain, when you say it is my consciousness, is it so? Or is it the consciousness of mankind? Enquire into it. You suffer, you are uncertain, you are anxious, you are in agony, pain. That is what you are. You have belief, knowledge, character, and that is what you are. And that is exactly what your neighbour is. He is suffering, he goes through agony, sorrow, pain, trouble. So, is your consciousness separate from the rest of mankind? No, of course not. If you admit that, if you see the truth of that, then are you an individual? You may think you are an individual because you are dark, you are short, because peripheral activity makes you think you are an individual, but deeply, are you not the rest of mankind? When you realize that, the truth of that, you will never kill another, because you are killing yourself. Then out of that comes great compassion, love.

Audience: What is an impersonal action?

Krishnamurti: What is an impersonal action? First of all, what is action? What do you mean by that word `action'? Either you act according to a pattern, or act according to some idea, act according to your experience which is the past, or act according to some ideal which is in the future, or act according to your knowledge which is the past, or act according to convenience. So what do you mean by that word? The word means acting, not having acted, or will act. But action means acting in the present. Whether that action is correct, true, actual, depends on the quality of your brain, of your heart, not just theory. So, sirs, enquire into what is action. We are all acting from morning till night. You are sitting there and the speaker is sitting here. And you listen and he is speaking - that is an action. If you listen, that is action, or if you don't listen, that is an action. How you listen is an action.

What do you mean by impersonal? You see we have concepts. What do you mean by person - word, name, form? Are you an individual to call yourself personal and then ask, `Can I be impersonal?' Are you an individual? You all think you are individuals. Your whole tradition, religions, tell you that you are an individual. Are you? Are you not the result of centuries of human endeavour? You don't want to question all those things. You are afraid. If you are not an individual, what would happen to you? Individuality is a form of isolation and, therefore, we are all at each other's throat all our life. We have no love for each other. We talk about love of god, but we do not love each other. And besides, god is the invention of man. I know you all believe in god, but you have invented that entity. If god does exist, and if he has created us, what a miserable god he must be. You don't want to look at it that way. You worship an illusion and you like the illusion and think that in illusion there is security. And you are finding out there is no security in illusion. Your god has betrayed you and yet you worship him - the Christian god, the Hindu god, the Muslim god. It is all so absurd and childish.

So, let us find out for ourselves if we can be a light to ourselves, not depend on anyone psychologically, inwardly, not depend on your wife, your husband, or your guru, or a book, but live a life, free, full of vitality, energy, so that your brain is acting, not mechanical. Our brains have become now a form of computer. Please do enquire into a different way of living.

J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 2nd Public Talk 31st October, 1982 `Conflict, Duality and Observation'

We are going to talk over together this evening many things. One does not listen to another actually. If you do listen, there is always a defence, there is always a resistance to anything that is said, to something new. There is an immediate reaction to resist because it might be disturbing. So, there is an art of listening: to listen to what is being said, not interpret what is being said to suit your own convenience, to your own traditional language, but to listen to the word, the meaning of that word, to see that we understand each other. To listen, one has to have not only a certain quality of attention but also a sense of affection, a sense of trying to understand what the other fellow is saying. Communication is possible at depth only when both of us are concerned about the same subject, about the same ideas, or concerned about a certain thing. Then we are both in communication with each other. But if you resist, as perhaps you are going to resist a great deal of what the speaker is going to say, then communication is not possible. One has to learn the art of listening. When you listen to music which you like, there is no resistance. You go with it, you shake your head, you clap your hands, you do all kinds of things to express your appreciation, your understanding of the quality of the music, and so on. There is no form of defence, no form of resistance; you are going with it; you are flowing with it. In the same way, kindly listen, not to be instructed, not to be told what to do, but to understand what is being said.

So, please learn the art of listening, not to the speaker only, but to your wife, to your husband, to your children, to the birds, to the wind, to the breeze, so that you become extraordinarily sensitive in listening. When you listen, you catch up quickly, you don't have to have a lot of explanations, analyses and descriptions; you are flowing with each other. We are talking together as two friends sitting in a park, or in a wood, quiet, birds are singing, there's plenty of light coming through the leaves on the floor and there is a sense of appreciation of beauty. When you so listen, the miracle takes place. When you so listen, it is like sowing a seed. If the seed is vital, strong, healthy, and the ground is properly prepared, it inevitably grows. So one has to learn the art of listening. If you listen very, very carefully, you capture it so quickly, the meaning of what the other is saying. Perhaps many of you have listened to the speaker for a number of years, unfortunately; and you get used to it; you get used to his language, his gesture, how he looks and so on, and you gradually slip off. And you say, `Why haven't I, after years of listening to this man, changed?' It is because you have actually not listened with your heart, with your mind, with your whole energy. So, don't blame the speaker, but rather learn, if one may suggest most respectfully, the way of listening. There is great beauty in listening to a bird, to the wind among the leaves, and to a word that is spoken with depth, with meaning, with passion.

We were saying yesterday that the future of man is at stake, and that man has no existence in isolation - isolation as a nation, isolation as a group, isolation in religion, isolation as an individual and isolation in consciousness. For most of us thinking is individual. You think there is a difference, a division - your opinion against my opinion, my thought against your thought, or your husband's thought, or your wife's thought. But thinking is not individual. Thinking is the ordinary factor from the poorest, ignorant man to the great Nobel prize winner, the scientist. They are both thinkers. But we have the idea that your thinking is yours, whereas thinking is the nature of man. Be clear on this point. When you think, it is not your individual thinking, it is the capacity of your brain to be active and respond in words, in form, and that is the nature of man. But we have reduced thinking to my thinking as opposed to your thinking. Most of us have got strong opinions, bias, conclusions. We have experienced so much and we think it is our experience, our conclusion. When a new outlook is put before you, you refuse to look. But thinking is the nature of man.

Can we go on from that? When you observe what is going on in the world outside of you, you see that each country is isolating itself, each group is isolating itself - the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Tibetan, the Russian, the American, and so on, This factor of isolation is destroying the world, is separating humanity This is an actual fact that is taking place in the world. Then, inwardly, each of us think we are separate. Tradition, religion, all that has conditioned our thinking that we are separate human beings. We are separate in the sense you are a woman and I am a man, tall, short, white, black, and so on. But we are talking at depth; that is, human consciousness is general, is shared by all human beings. All human beings suffer, go through great agonies, shed tears, have the sense of loneliness, pain, anxiety, depression, uncertainty. The poorest and the most sophisticated, erudite human beings - all have this general factor. They all share this. This is so. So, our consciousness is not yours or mine. It is the consciousness of all human beings. It is very difficult for most people to see the reality of this, because we have been so conditioned. For Christianity, you are a separate soul. Here, among the Hindus, you reincarnate over and over again till you reach, god knows what. It is still the emphasis that you are a separate individual. Is that so? We are questioning. We have to find out, doubt, ask, which means you are listening without any defence, without any resistance to this truth. We are using the word correctly; it is the truth. You may, at the periphery, on the outside, have certain mannerisms, certain habits, certain tendencies, capacities, but if you move from the outer to the inner, we all share the same common issues. Unless we realize this, not verbally, not intellectually, but in our hearts, in our minds, in our blood, we are going to destroy each other.

We are capable of listening to the actual fact that our consciousness is its content; our consciousness is made up of its content. Isn't it? Look, a great many books have been written about consciousness. There are specialists about consciousness; conferences about consciousness are held all over the world. One has to enquire into the nature of one's own consciousness, observe the content, because without the content there is no consciousness. Are you following all this? Consciousness is made up of one's beliefs, one's tendencies, one's secret desires, anxieties, loneliness, and so on. There is the content which makes up consciousness. Without the content, there is no consciousness as we know it. If you observe your own consciousness, that is what you are; your consciousness is what you are. Your fears, your desires, your pleasures, your loneliness, depression, anxiety and all that, that is what you are, what you believe.

So the content makes the consciousness and that consciousness is conditioned. Since it is conditioned, it must be in conflict. Aren't you all in conflict of some kind or other, conflict being dissension between two people, conflict with oneself, what is and what should be? That is conflict. All human beings apparently are violent. The content of our consciousness is part of that violence. Conflict arises when there is duality. That is, I am violent, I should not be violent. Or I have the ideal of non-violence or of practising non-violence, but the fact is you are violent. That is a fact. The other is not a fact.

We must go into this very carefully because we are trying to understand why human beings live perpetually in conflict, why there is a contradiction - I am, I should be; I am violent, I must become non-violent. The non-violence is an idea, is a concept, is not an actuality, because I am violent. This is a fact, an actuality. The other is non-fact, but we think the pursuit of non-violence will help us to become non-violent, that we will be free from violence. Let us understand the content of that word. What does violence mean? There is physical violence. You shoot with a gun, or you hit, or you throw a bomb, you slap, you injure. That is physical violence. What is psychological violence? - the inward anger, hatred, wanting to dominate people, not only physical domination, but the domination of ideas. I know, you don't know; I will tell you, and you will obey. That is domination. The gurus are violent because they are dominating people with their ideas, with their systems of meditation and all that. Please understand this. We are not attacking gurus. I am just pointing out that psychological dependence, imitation, conformity, domination, all that is inward violence. That is a fact. Can we deal with the fact and not with the idea of the opposite? There is no opposite. Right? There is an opposite as darkness and light, woman and man, tall and short, dark and white, and so on. Inwardly, is there a duality at all? Actually we are asking, `Is there a duality or only `what is''?' There is only `what is', that is, I am violent. Now, is it possible to be free of violence, not to become non-violent? Is this clear? This country has propagated this idea of non-violence. Being violent, they are propagating something which they are not. That means I am gradually, day by day, practising to become that, not to understand violence, but become something which I have called non-violence. Do you see the difference? Hence there is conflict. When I am observing, learning, enquiring into the fact, there is no conflict in my mind. But if my mind is all the time saying, `l must achieve non-violence', then there is conflict. But if I say I am violent, what is the root of violence, what is the nature of violence? I don't condemn it, I observe it.

What is observation? Now, when you observe the full moon, do you observe it, do you see the beauty of that light, see the extraordinary quality of that light, or do you say it is a full moon and do something else? What do you mean by observing? Do you ever observe the snow clad mountain with all that grandeur, the beauty, the deep valleys full of dark shadows, the extraordinary majesty of that mountain? When you observe for a single moment, all your problems have gone, because the majesty of that mountain has driven away all your problems for a second. Have you noticed it? But your problems come back immediately. So we are going to talk over together what it means to observe.

Now, suppose I am violent. How do I observe that violence? I want to understand the nature of that violence. I want to explore, discover the extraordinary factors that contribute to violence. How do I observe? First, is violence different from me? Do you understand my question? I am asking, is that violence, which I see when I say I am violent, is that violence different from me, or I am that violence? When you are angry, you are angry. It is not that you are different from anger. You are different from anger only when you want to control it, only when you say, `I must suppress it,' but are you actually different, separate from violence? Is that so? Has the word `violence' - separated through tradition, through constantly talking about violence and so on - created a separation from observation?

The observer says, I am different from that, I am different from violence. We have to enquire who is the observer. The observer is the past, who has known what violence is. It is the past, it is knowledge, it is experience, it is all the stored-up memories. Those memories, those various forms of knowledge, and the movement of all that, is the past. Thought has divided itself as the past, the present, and the future. It has divided itself as the observer and the observed. Thought has said, `I am not violent, violence is not part of me.' But when you look at it closely, you are violent, you are angry, you are greedy, envious, competitive, depressed, you are all that. Right? The observer is not different from that which he is observing. Please understand this. This is very important because, if you really understand this with all your heart and your mind, with all your brain, conflict comes to an end; there is no duality at all. Forget all your books, the Vedanta and all the rest of it. The fact is, there is no opposite except physically. Psychologically, inwardly, there is only the fact. The fact is, one is violent and jealous, and so on.

Now, can you observe the fact without its opposite, which thought has invented? Do you see this, to observe `what is'? In that observation, the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought the experiencer is the experienced. But we have separated it. We are saying, `I must experience enlightenment,' or whatever it is you want to experience. So the thinker is the thought. There is no thinker without thought. The observer is the observed, the analyser is that which he is analysing. I can put it in ten different ways. But that is a fact: the observer is the observed. Therefore, you eliminate altogether the sense of duality inwardly. Then there is no question of suppressing it, escaping from it, analysing it. It is there. Then what takes place? What takes place when there is actually the realization of this truth that there is only the fact, not the invented opposite, only that which is? In that there is no division as the observer or the observed. Then what takes place? Do you understand my question?

Man has lived in conflict from time immemorial. If you see the rock engravings or those caves in France and in certain parts of the world, you will see that there has always been this battle between the good and the bad, the good against the evil. This has been the history of man - conflict. We are asking if this conflict can end. If it ends, then he is a human being who is vital, creative, and he has something extraordinary. When there is this realization that you are violent, not that you are separate and violence is separate, but you are that, what takes place? You are brown, you have certain characteristics, you have troubles, you are a professor or a scientist - all that is not separate from you. So what takes place when this fact, this truth, is realized, not intellectually, not verbally, but deep down as fact, as truth? Have you not eliminated altogether the opposite? There is only this, and so live with that like a precious jewel that you have discovered; you are watching it, seeing the beauty of that jewel, the light, the many aspects of it as you are watching, which is part of yourself. Therefore, watching, observing, is extraordinarily important so that there is no division whatsoever between the watcher and that which is watched. Then you realize that nothing can be done about it. You are brown, you cannot change it. The fact is, when there is such observation, it is not the word, it is not the memory, it is something totally new. You are facing this new reaction, which you call violence, anew. That means, have you observed anything anew? Have you seen the moon, the new moon that is coming up, as though for the first time in your life? Have you looked at your wife or husband as though for the first time? Or do you just say she is my wife, he is my husband - just a mechanical observation? To observe requires great enquiry, energy, vitality, to see actually `what is'.

We are now concerned with the elimination altogether of all kinds of conflict. Why do we have opinions? You have opinions, judgments, haven't you? Please enquire into this. Why do you carry opinions? It is a burden. I am a Brahmin you are not. I am a Sikh, you are not. I am a Muslim, you are not. Why do you have these opinions? It indicates a mind, a brain, that is so crowded with opinions it is becoming small, petty, narrow. It is not free to enquire, to look.

Why is the human mind, the human brain, always occupied, never free, never quiet? Enquire into all this, because we have a tremendous crisis in the world and also a crisis in our consciousness,

We should also talk over together, relationship. Why is it that in our relationship with each other, however intimate, sexual, however close, there is conflict? Why cannot two people live peacefully? Have you ever asked that question? Because this is very important. If I don't know how to live peacefully with my wife, with my husband, with my girl friend, I cannot live peacefully in the world. I may talk about peace, I may write a great deal about peace, go all over the world talking about peace, but I am quarrelling with my wife, or with my husband. So there is conflict in our relationship. Why? Do you want me to tell you or are you enquiring with the speaker? If you are really enquiring, it is a sharing, a moving together, not agreeing together, but thinking step by step, going together, like walking hand in hand on the lane where there is so much beauty, love and affection. Why is there this dissension, this division between man and man, woman and man, in our relationship? Have you noticed it? We are like two parallel lines, never meeting. We never say what we mean and stick to what we mean. We are going to find out together why in human relationship we have such desperate, ugly conflicts. I have my ambition, my desires, my problems. In my office, I am competitive, aggressive. I am pursuing my own direction and the wife is also pursuing her own ambition, and I dominate, which she resists. So we are asking why there is this conflict, because we two have to live together. We have sex, we have children, but we two are separate. Isn't it a fact? I dominate her or she dominates me, she bullies me, or I bully her. I scold her or she scolds me. I don't beat her but I am angry with her. I would like to beat her, but I am a little more controlled. You laugh; but these are all facts. But I am an individual, she is an individual. Each must have his own way - in habits, in desires. Then, how can two people live together? Which means, you have no love at all for your wife or your husband.

Do you know what it means to love another? Have you ever loved anybody? Is love dependence? Is love desire? Is love pleasure? I don't love my wife; she doesn't love me. We are two separate individuals. We may meet sexually, otherwise we carry on in our own particular way. Do you understand, sirs? Does love exist in this country? Don't ask, `Does it exist in Europe?' When the speaker is in Europe, he talks about it there. But we are talking about it here as we are in this country, in this part of the world. Is there love in this country? Do you love anybody? Can love exist with fear, when each one is becoming something? Can love exist when I am becoming a saint and she is not, or she is becoming a saint and I am not, when each one is becoming? Please understand all this. It is your life. When each one is becoming something, how can there be love? Is it possible to love another without wanting a single thing from another, either emotionally, physically, in any way, not ask my wife for anything? Psychologically, she may care for my need, for I may bring money. I am not talking about that. But inwardly, love cannot exist where there is attachment. If you are attached to your guru, there is no love in your heart. This is very, very serious. Without love, there is no right action. We talk about action. We do so many kinds of social work. But when there is love in your heart, in your eyes, in your blood, in your face, you are a different human being. Whatever you do then has beauty, has grace, is a right action. All this may be excellent words you hear. But will you have this quality? It cannot be cultivated, it cannot be practised, it cannot be bought from your guru, from anywhere. But without that, you are dead human beings. So what will you do? Please do ask this question, find out for yourself why this flame does not exist, why you have become such paupers. Unless you put your house in order, your house, which is yourselves, there will be no order in the world. You may meditate for the rest of your life; but without that, your meditation has no meaning. So, please, most respectfully we are asking, what is your response?

Audience: Well, sir, you have been talking about radical change for the last 50 years, and obviously there is not any radical change in the world. My question to you, then, is why do you talk?

Krishnamurti: The gentleman asks, you have talked about fundamental change of human consciousness and so on for the last 50 years and obviously there is no change at all. Then the question is, why do you talk? The speaker is not talking for his amusement, for his fulfilment, for his encouragement. If he didn't talk, he would not feel depressed, he would not feel lacking something. Therefore, why do I talk? Have you ever asked why the lotus blooms? Have you, sir? Have you ever asked why a flower blooms, why it has so much beauty, why it has such marvellous colour, the depth and the smell and the glory of a simple flower? Maybe the speaker has been talking about compassion.

J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 3rd Public Talk 6th November, 1982 `Factors of Disorder'

If one may point out, we are probing together, questioning, doubting, asking, and this is not a lecture. We are together enquiring, taking a walk together into the whole field of existence, not dealing with a particular problem, but the problem of man, the problem of human beings. One of the factors in our existence is that we live in disorder. Apparently, after thirty, forty thousand years or more, we have not been able to live in total order in the universe; not relative order, but to have order within, under all circumstances, wherever we live - socially, politically, and so on. What is important is that we, you and I the speaker, should unfold the causes of disorder, not merely listen to the explanation or the description which the speaker might offer, but together think, observe, go into ourselves, not in any way selfishly or self-centredly, but look at our lives, look at what we have made of the world; why man, the human being, lives in perpetual disorder outwardly and inwardly. To enquire if it is possible to live in order inwardly first, then outwardly, not the other way round. But first, inwardly, deep within ourselves one can live in complete order. Also, we should be able to discuss, talk over together this evening, the problem of suffering and this enormous mystery of death.

Beauty is complete order. But most of us have not that sense of beauty in our lives. We may be great artists, great painters, expert in various things, but in our own daily life, with all the anxieties and miseries, we live, unfortunately, a very disordered life. It is a fact. You may be a great scientist, you may be a very great expert in a subject, but you have your own problems, struggles, pain, anxieties and the rest of it. We are asking together, is it possible to live in complete order within, not impose discipline, control, but to enquire into the nature of this disorder, what are the causes, and to dispel, move away, wash away the cause? Then there is a living order in the universe.

Order is not following a particular pattern of life, or following certain systems blindly or openly, but to enquire into ourselves and discover for ourselves; not to be told, not to be guided, but to unfold in ourselves the real causes of this disorder. So, what are the causes of this chaos, not only in the world outside of us, but also of our own inward psychological confusion which has produced disorder outwardly?

Would you consider desire as one of the factors of disorder? What is desire? For most of us desire is a potent factor: desire drives us, desire brings about a sense of happiness or disaster. Desire changes with the objects of desire. Is desire one of the causes? Why is it that all religions, all so-called religious people, have suppressed desire? All over the world the monks, the sannyasis, have denied desire, though they are boiling inside. The fire of desire is burning, but they deny it by suppressing it or identifying that desire with a symbol, with a figure and surrendering that desire to the figure, to that person. But it is still desire. Most of us, when we become aware of our desires, either suppress or indulge it or come into conflict; the battle goes on. We are not advocating either to suppress it or to surrender to it or to control it. That has been done all over the world by every religious person. We are examining it very closely so that out of your own understanding of that desire, how it arises, its nature, out of that understanding, self-awareness of it, one becomes intelligent. Then that intelligence acts, not desire.

First of all, are we aware, each one of us, of the extraordinary power of desire - desire for power, desire for certain things, desire for god, desire for enlightenment, desire to follow some system? Desire has so many aspects. It is as intricate as the weaving of a great master weaver. One has to look at it very, very simply and then the complexity arises. But if you start with complexity, then you are not going further. If you start simply, then you can go very far. We are looking at it - the root and the beginning of desire.

Have you ever noticed how our senses operate? Does one become aware of one's senses, not a particular sense, but the totality of the senses? - the feeling, the tasting, the hearing, the seeing - to have all these senses in operation fully? When all your senses are active, functioning, have you ever looked at a tree that way? Have you ever looked at the sea, the mountain, the hills and the valley with all your senses? If you do, then there is no centre from which you are looking. The whole of your sensory reactions are complete, not controlled, shaped, suppressed. Unless you understand this very clearly, it is a dangerous thing to say this because, for most of us, our senses are partial - we may have very good taste for clothes and a rotten taste for furniture! You know all that. Our senses are limited as we now live. Nobody, no religion, no other philosophers, have said this. All the senses have to flower and, in that flowering, perceive the beauty of the world.

So, what are the causes of desire? Let us go into it very carefully. What is desire; How does it arise? It doesn't arise by itself. It arises through sensation, through contact, through seeing something - seeing a man or a woman, seeing a dress in a window, seeing a dress or a car or the great hills. There is immediate sensation. It is natural, healthy, to have such sensation, such response. Then what takes place? I see a beautiful woman, a beautiful man, a beautiful house, a beautiful dress. I see a beautiful shirt made most delicately. I go inside and touch the material. First seeing, then contact, and from that contact, sensation, right? Then what happens? Enquire into it: You have touched the shirt, you have the sensation of its quality, its colour. Up to now there has been no desire; there has been only sensation. Then what happens? You have touched that shirt or dress. Then thought creates the image of you in that shirt, in that car, in that dress. When thought creates that image, that is the moment desire is born. That is, desire begins when thought creates the image. I see a beautiful violin - I want to have it; the beauty of that sound that violin makes - I like to possess it. I look at it, touch it, get the sense of that old structure, and I would like to have it; that is, the moment thought enters into the field of sensation and creates the image, then desire begins.

Now, the question is, whether there can be a hiatus, a gap; that is, have only sensation, and not let thought come and control sensation. That is the problem. Why does thought create the image and hold on to that sensation? Is it possible to look at the shirt, touch it - sensation - and stop, not allow thought to enter into it? Have you ever tried any of these? When thought enters into the field of sensation - and thought is also a sensation - then thought takes control of sensation, and desire begins. Is it possible to only observe, contact, sensation, and nothing else? Do you understand that? And discipline has no place in this because the moment you begin to discipline, that is another form of desire to achieve something. So one has to discover the beginning of desire and see what happens. Don't buy the shirt immediately, but see what happens. You can look at it; but we are so eager to get something, to possess a shirt, a man, a woman or some status that we have never the time, the quietness, to look at all this. So, desire is one of the factors of our disorder. We have been trained either to suppress or to change the object. But we have never looked at the moment of the flowering of desire. That is one of the causes of disorder in our life. Please bear in mind, we are not trying to control desire - that has been tried by all the so-called saints - nor are we talking of indulging desire, but we are looking at it like a flower, how it grows.

Then, is fear one of the causes of disorder? Obviously, it is - fear of failure, fear of not being able to fulfil, fear of losing, fear of not gaining. We have every kind of fear. You have fear of the guru - have you ever noticed how you crawl in front of a guru? You kind of become inhuman, you are afraid. You want something from him and so you worship him. In that worship there is fear. So, there are multiple forms of fear. We are not talking of one particular form. We are asking what is the root of fear. If we can discover the root of fear, then the whole tree is there. Do you understand that? But if I am concerned with my particular little fear of darkness, or of my husband, wife, or something or the other, my brain is not involved in the discovery of the whole root. This is clear. So, what is the root of fear? How does it arise? This is a very complex problem. Every complex problem must be approached very simply, the simpler the better. Simpler means to say, `I don't know how to deal with fear.' Then you begin to discover. If you have already come to a conclusion as to what the root of fear is, then you never discover what the root is. But you have to approach fear very simply, the trunk and the root of fear, not the branches. We are asking what is the cause or the causation of fear.

Would you say time is a factor of fear? Time - that is, I am living, I might die tomorrow, which is time, right? To go from here to your house, that requires time. There are only two kinds of time: time by the sunrise or sunset, time by the watch, time by the distance you have to cover, time that is physical. There is the other time which is psychological, inward: I am this, but I will be that; I am violent, but I am practising non-violence; I am brutal, but give me time, I will get over it; I hope I will meet my friend tomorrow. Hope implies time. Do you understand this? There is time by the watch, time as psychological becoming, climbing the ladder of becoming, that is, creating an ideal and then trying to reach that ideal: I am this but tomorrow I will be different; I have not reached the position of power, but give me time, I will get it - all that implies psychological time. Is that clear? So, one of the factors of fear is time.

We must ask what is time, not by the watch, but time that we have: `I hope I will', which is measurement. Hope implies measurement. Time is movement, isn't it? When we begin to understand that there can be an end to fear completely, inwardly; then there is a possibility of being totally free from fear. To find that out, one must begin to enquire. Desire is one of the factors of disorder. Fear is one of the factors. Fear is time. Time is a movement from one point to another point, both physically and psychologically - I need time to learn a language. It may take a month, two months, or three months. To go from here to London takes time. To drive a car I need time. We need time there. But when we use that time to become something inwardly, we have moved over from the physical fact of learning a language to the psychological field, and I say to myself: I also need time to evolve, to become less violent. Do you understand this? I need time to learn a language and also I think I need time to get over violence, to bring about peace in the world. That is a movement in measurement. That is a movement which is thought. Thought is a movement and thought has created time. That is, I want to change `what is', and to change that I need time.

So, desire, time, thought, are the factors which bring about fear. I have done something wrong two years ago, and that has caused pain, and I will not do the same thing again. Now, what is thought? The whole world is moving in the realm of thought. The technological world with all its extraordinary complexity is brought about by thought. Man has built the most extraordinary, complicated machines like the computer, the jet, and so on. It is also put together by thought. All the great cathedrals are put together by thought; all the temples and all the things that are in the temples and cathedrals are put together by thought. The rituals are invented by thought. The guru is invented by thought. When you say `I am a Sikh', it is thought conditioning itself as a Sikh and operating. So thought has become the most important factor in our life. In our relationship, thought dominates. Thought has created the problems of war, and thought then says, `I must have peace also', which is a contradiction. Do you understand? Why has thought become so extraordinarily important in the world?

What is thought, what is the origin and the beginning of thought, and why does man depend on thought? All the great intellectuals, the great scientists, great philosophers, all the books that have been written, are all the result of thought, are based on thought. What is thought, by which we live? Is there a thought without knowledge? What is knowledge? There are several kinds of knowledge, but we will take two: knowledge you acquire by going to a school, college, a university, or by becoming an apprentice and gradually accumulating skill. If you want to be a carpenter, you must learn the grains of wood, what kind of wood to use, what instruments to use, and so on. If you want to be a scientist, you must have tremendous knowledge. Knowledge is born of experience. One scientist discovers something; another scientist adds to it or detracts from it. So, there is a gradual accumulation of knowledge. Now, is knowledge complete, or is knowledge always limited? Can the human thought which is born of knowledge, can that knowledge, be totally complete about anything? Knowledge is always limited. The Gita, the Upanishads, the Bible, they are all knowledge. And knowledge, whether it is given by a saint, by a politician, by a philosopher, is limited. So don't worship knowledge. If it is limited, as it is, then knowledge always lives with ignorance. So, thought is born out of knowledge. Do you understand this - the complexity of thought, the delicacy of thought, the extraordinary capacity of thought? In one direction, in the technological direction, it has invented the marvellous machinery, the dynamo, the piston engine, the jet, and so on, and on the other hand, thought has created wars. It has created instruments of war. We want to kill each other. If thought is the only instrument we have and that instrument is becoming blunt and creating problems, we are asking if there is another kind of instrument which is not thought.

We see disorder in our lives, at whatever level we may live. You may have the greatest power on earth, be a politician or a guru, but you live in disorder inwardly. Therefore, whatever you touch, to it you bring disorder. You see this all over the country. There are many factors of disorder, and desire is one factor. We went into it - desire, time and thought. If you exercise thought to create order, you are still creating disorder. Do you understand? Our whole life is based on discipline. We have disciplined ourselves to do this and not to do that. The word `discipline' is, the root of it is, `to learn; not from somebody, but to learn from oneself, one's own reactions, one's own observation, and one's own activities and behaviour. But discipline never brings about intelligence. What brings about intelligence is observation, and being free from fear, and understanding the nature of desire. For example, if you understand desire, see the nature, structure, its vitality, and find out for yourself the sensation and when thought enters it, when you become aware of that, you are beginning to have intelligence, which is not your intelligence or my intelligence but intelligence. So, is it possible to be free of fear which is such a tremendous burden? You have listened. Are you free from it? If you are honest, you are not. Why? Because, you have not really investigated, gone into it step by step and said, `Let me find out' with your passion, with your guts, putting your vitality into it. You have not done that. You have just listened casually, you are afraid to look at it. And so you live with it, as with some horrible disease, you live with fear, and that is causing disorder. If you see that, you are already operating from intelligence. If you understand the nature of thought, the intricacies, the subtleties, the beauty of it, from that understanding the unfolding of a flower happens. It is unfolding - the beauty of the flower.

Do you see the beauty of the flower, of the mountain, of a full moon on a leaf, the lights of silver on a piece of rock? Sir, what is beauty, not in a painting, but beauty in our life? What is the nature of sorrow, the ending of that burden, puffing away of sorrow? If you suffer pain, anxiety, ambition, and so on, you don't know what love is. You want to be ambitious, you want to have power, position, better house, better cars. Have you ever understood that a man who is ambitious has no love in his heart? And we are all very ambitious to achieve nirvana or to become a bank manager. To reach nirvana or moksha is the same thing as becoming manager of a bank because both are ambitions. To live a life of intelligence means no ambition but to be tremendously active. Sir, we have to talk over together the ending of sorrow, and what are the implications of death, and what is religion. Without religion you cannot create a new structure, a new society. What we have as religion is utter nonsense, meaningless. We have to enquire into the depth of that word. Because, only a new culture, a new civilization, can be born out of true religion, not all that paraphernalia that goes on in the name of religion. Religion is something entirely different. To have a religious life means to have compassion, love; it means the ending of sorrow, to find right relationship with each other. What most people want is not to be disturbed. They want to continue with their own particular pattern of life. So, please consider, give your energy, your capacity, to find out whether there is a different way of living on this earth.

You don't love anybody. If you love somebody, then this country would not be in chaos as it is; and there won't be wars if we love people. Your books, your rituals, your japas have no meaning whatsoever because you have lost the most precious thing in life. You probably never had it: to love without jealousy, without possession. Love is not attachment. If all of us under this tent, if we all love, then there will be a different India tomorrow. You are all so verbal, you just use words, but find out why your life is empty, shallow, why you have no love, why there is no compassion, why you are a Hindu, a Sikh, and a Muslim. You have never asked these questions, sirs. Meditation is to ask these questions. Meditation is to find out the reality of these questions and the truth that lies behind these questions.

J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 4th Public Talk 7th November, 1982 `In Ending, There is a New Beginning'

It is necessary to talk about suffering and whether there is an end to suffering, and the meaning of death. That is part of our life. We should go also into the question of religion, what is implied in religion, what is a religious mind, and meditation. We will talk over together as two friends who have known each other for some time, not opposing each other, not defending or accusing, but enquiring, probing gently, because one discovers what is true only when there is no certainty. Those who begin with certainty end up in uncertainty. Those who begin with uncertainty, questioning, asking, doubting, probing, those end up with absolute certainty, not relative certainty.

So, what is suffering; can it end? And if there is suffering, can there be love? Human beings throughout the world have suffered incredibly. The last two world wars and the previous 5,000 years in which there have been wars, practically every year, man, woman has shed innumerable tears. Man has suffered and is going on suffering. The poor in this country suffer. There is disease, pain, and the anguish of human existence. Life is not pleasant; life is a turmoil, agony. One becomes more and more aware of all this. One begins to see very clearly that all human beings bear the same burden, share the same sorrow; not a particular sorrow, not the sorrow of one's son dying or brother dying, or the wife or the husband leaving, but the sorrow which man has accumulated for thousands of years. Your sorrow is the sorrow of mankind, the sorrow of all human beings, whether you live in Russia or China or in this unfortunate country.

We are questioning, asking the causes of sorrow, the pain of sorrow, the grief, the anxiety that comes with sorrow, the utter loneliness of sorrow. Like pleasure, sorrow is narrowed down as mine. When we are concerned with our own particular sorrow, we neglect, we disregard, we are not concerned with the sorrow of mankind, whereas our consciousness is the consciousness of humanity. One must understand this very clearly because, in understanding the nature of our consciousness, what we are, we begin to see that our pain, our loneliness, our depression, our joys, our beliefs, are shared by all humanity. You may believe in one kind of god and he may believe in another kind of god, but belief is common, belief is general, and that is our consciousness. That is what you are. The language you speak, the food you eat, the climate, the clothes, the education, the constant repetition of certain phrases, the loneliness, the ultimate fear of death, is the ground on which all humanity stands. You are the humanity. Your consciousness is not individual. It is the consciousness of all mankind with their myths, superstitions, with their images, fears, and so on. This is important to understand, not intellectually, not verbally, but with your heart, with your mind, because, when we come to the question of what is death, we must first understand the nature of our consciousness, the nature of what we are actually; not what we should be, but what we actually are in daily life. That actuality is shared by each and every human being in the world.

When we are enquiring into the nature of sorrow, we are not discussing your particular, narrow, little pain and agony but the agony of mankind and you actually are mankind. This enquiry is not selfish. This enquiry opens up tremendous possibilities. Kindly listen, find out for yourself the nature of sorrow, why human beings all over the world have gone through tortures, sorrow. What is sorrow and why has not mankind put it off, thrown it off? Please ask this question of yourself. Why must you have some kind of sorrow, some kind of grief, pain, the sorrow of loneliness, though you may be married, have children? You are lonely people. You have separated yourself enormously. When there is a great grief, you realize how lonely you are. We are asking, is one of the causes of sorrow this loneliness? Loneliness is the result of our daily life. Each one of us, from the highest to the lowest, is completely convinced that he is a separate soul, separate entity, and all his activity is self-centred. The daily activity of this self-centredness will inevitably bring about solitude, loneliness, separatism, division. We are asking, is this isolation in our way of thinking, in our way of life, one of the causes of sorrow?

And, is attachment the cause of sorrow? I am attached to my wife, to my son, to my memories, to my beliefs, to my experience. I am attached to that. I believe and I am attached to that belief, and when that belief is questioned, doubted, shaken, there is uncertainty, pain. Is that one of the causes of sorrow? Is it possible to be free of all beliefs, not one particular belief or one particular ideal, but to be totally free of all ideals, all beliefs? Please don't ask, `If one is free of belief and ideals, what do you replace it by?' That is a wrong question. See the truth that any belief, any ideal, divides people. I believe that god exists or does not exist. I believe in certain ideology - communist, socialist, capitalist, whatever it is, for which I am willing to fight, kill people. We believe because it gives us some sense of security. You may believe in god, as most of you do, because it gives you a sense of protection, guidance, security. The mind has invented, the brain has invented, various forms of security - nationalism, religious figures, and the so-called sacred books. They have all given a certain quality of security. Actually, there is no security at all. It is an illusion. To realize that belief, ideals and so on are very, very destructive, that they separate man from man, and to see the truth of it, is to become intelligent. Only in intelligence there is complete security, not in your beliefs, in your myths and ideals. To discover this intelligence - and that intelligence is not yours or the speaker's, it is intelligence - is to see the false as false and end the false. To see `what is' actually, not imagine and run away from it but to see actually what we are, and in that exploration there is the awakening of intelligence.

So we are asking, is pain, the anguish, sorrow, brought about by our isolation of mind, of thought, of action? Is sorrow the result of our daily attachment, how we are attached to people? Please wake up to all this, see the truth of all this. Please explore the nature of attachment. It breeds anxiety, fear, pain, jealousy, hatred. All these are the consequences of attachment. You are attached to your wife or to your husband. See the consequences of it. You depend on each other, that dependence gives a form of security. When that person leaves or dies or runs away from you, you are then in pain, in agony, you have suspicion, hatred and sorrow. Don't you know all this? It is nothing new. This is an everyday fact of life. It may not happen to you, but it is happening to others, millions of others. In their relationship, there is sorrow, fear, agony.

We are asking, is attachment one of the causes of this sorrow? I am attached to my son and he dies, and then I invent various forms of comfort. I never remain with sorrow. To remain, not to escape, not to seek comfort, not to run off to some form of entertainment, religious or otherwise, but to look at it, live with it, understand the nature of it - when you do that, sorrow opens the door to passion. You are not passionate people because you have never understood the nature of sorrow and the ending of sorrow. You have become very dull. You accept anything, accept sorrow, accept fear, you accept being dominated